158 gr 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullet will penetrate outside skin of car door and sometimes just penetrate the inside skin. After reading your article, I had to 1.) At 8yoa my dad taught me to shoot with a 1911. Physics says my 225 grain .45 ACP ,+P+ traveling at 1210 fps is more capable than ANY 9mm currently available. 45 Acp Damage Human Body Platt was killed at the end of the gunfight, but not before unleashing deadly mayhem. For gun owners, this means that, when you fire a brutally powerful weapon, its going to shove you backwards as well as fly up. The tests resulted in the selection in 1989 of the 10mm bullet as the most effective and accurate round for FBI agents to carry. WebAs shown in Fig. LE, south LA and Watts for 8 1/2 out of 15 years. This type of damage is known as permanent cavity. I can shoot consistently accurately. Type of ammo, stopping power, number of shots, shot placement, kick back, does the gun fit your hand, and whether your cheap crappy gun jams on you these are all part of the equation. It might be bigger, but bigger isnt always better. Practice, practice, practice. I think it is more the exception than the rule. to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. Just as in the case of the military, my agencies biggest determining factors for this decision were not anything to do with the performance of the rounds or the effectiveness for the safety of the officer. It seems to me to be better than the 9mm or the 45 acp Due to the heavy load some people with both types of weapons had malfunctions as the slide was moving too fast causing failure to feed. To answer the question which is better 9mm or 45APC. Other human tissue in the body reacts differently. Oh and dont give me the garbage about 9mm has come a long way since its inception. He also competes in USPSA and 3-gun competitions including numerous top-10 finishes at major matches and championships. Vital organs sit deep within the human body, so penetration and permanent cavity volume are important factors. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook, Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition. Be Safe Out There. It is also of considerable general interest if for no other reason than to show how often the movie makers and novel writers make appalling blunders. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. I thought I would never own a 9 mm. Then, theres the venerable .357 magnum, which, though smaller than the .44, comes roaring out of a barrel at speeds as high as 1600 FPS. Desert Eagle Ammo Type: .45 ACP. Indeed, you and bystanders in the immediate area are much more endangered by rounds that do not penetrate sufficiently than by rounds that overpenetrate.. Not to kill but enough to let us get to our guys or a firearms. The HRP is concerned with long-term health consequences of radiation exposure such as cancer, as well as adverse effects to the central nervous and cardiovascular systems. Because you are making a decision based on the fact that something (9mm) didnt work. WebIn a perforating wound, the bullet creates an exit wound as it escapes the body. But you have no proof that the .45 ACP will work that much better. However, in early 2015 the door was cracked open, allowing them to choose Glock 19's (chambered in 9mm) instead of their larger counterpart. and manufacturers. If you can fire without remorse. For example, a shot through the side of the body must penetrate between 10 to 12 inches to hit the heart. well lets fac the facts ere during th banna war the marines choose the 45 acp end of story. I have several calibers, personally I like my Sig 239 40cal as my sidearm ! Also SOCOM has been using hollowpoint ammunition for years, but primarily against unsanctioned terrorist personnel. You need to be a little more specific. .45 caliber merely refers to the diameter of the bullet. There are a large variety of cartridges that fire b So that is where the saying and belief came from. Anyway, stay tuned we shall wait and see. Several firearms in .22LR, .380ACP, 9mm, 7.62x25, 7.62 Nagant, .38/.357, 7.62x54R, .45ACP and .223. 9mm vs .45 ACP [Debate Finally Settled] - Pew Pew Tactical and have shot that enough also to hit well with it. Mabe you are just faster and things work out like the movies. I am old school. Of the nearly 250 million guns owned by Americans at that time, somewhere between 40 and 50 million of them were handguns. As someone just coming in your home or coming at you out of the blue. Another, was a 300lb black bear. Studies based on law enforcement shootings that are available to us show that only one or two solid torso hits can be expected at best. It normally doesnt do that with hollowpoints, either. You would think he would know a thing or two about firearms and ballistics with a title like that. The best stopping power is a complex mix of many different factors, including how fast the round is traveling and what it does when it enters the attackers body. Anything else is a simple failure to prepare. A 4 inch Redhawk 45 colt loaded with 24 grains of H100 under a 335 grain Cast performance sledgehammer should be good against the largest carnivore Todd. Having had lots of time with all 3 (9mm, 40 s&w and 45acp) yes the 9 is easier to fire and carries more ammo but in my experience you need that extra ammo to stop the threat. Just some REAL world observation not keyboard commando stuff. But you have to shoot the gun your most accurate with and most comfortable with but if you dont seat the grip of any pistol in the web of the hand deeply all guns no matter what the caliber the gun will whip in the hand. I owned a 9mm years ago and liked the gun, though the grip was too large for me due to the double stack magazine. Marine Force Recon Vietnam Vet. If you are in the sixties o more 9 mm is the best choice. Probably not, but here is my take on the ol' 9mm vs 45 ACP debate. and love a SA trigger. If the first bullet ricochets off the windshield, the succeeding rounds will make it through. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Ill leave it at this and welcome any comments of common sense and or experience. The test results disclosed that the .45 round displaced an average of 4.22 cubic inches of tissue, the 10mm round 4.11 cubic inches and the 9mm round 2.82 cubic inches. It makes a bigger hole. Going on 7 years Law Enforcement here with a rough Dept. Cheap crap. He is the author of two published books on deadly force and an upcoming book on supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. I have handgun hunted for over 25 yrs and enjoy it immensly, and also do a lot of reloading.IF a guy wants to carry a 45 or 9 or anything else and are comfortable and proficient with either, then why not? So its definitely capable. Lethality by Caliber: Whats the Best Handgun Caliber For You? Rookie year. WebActually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive 45 ACP Here is the money point: assume you will only get ONE shot at the perp. Im in the process to actually buy one. Theres no reason to mince words a handgun for self defense exists to create damage to the human body. Ballistics engineers try to balance speed, mass, and surface area to make the most effective round possible. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for There are already documented instances where .45 ACP also failed to get reliable stops on a bad guy. And the department is no small one. But this cartridge uses a half-grain bullet compared to 9mm. And anyways I own a Kimber Colt 45 1911 with a muzzle breaker on it steel slide aluminum from and honey comb grips, I also own for my conceal Walther Q4 with tactical barrel. I will address the people shooting the weapons in the military. .45 ACP is not the one-shot-stopping hammer that some people think it is. 9mm Vs 45 Has The Marine Corps Settled It? - Concealed Carry Inc Math is absolute and backs what Ive stated. I got it cheap and after using it and putting a few hundred rounds without any malfunction and also being very accurate. Its proven knowledge. Last summer had a large male black bear tried to enter my camper. I would love to get my hands on the data and map it by cartridge. Just how common are self-defense uses of firearms? Im an athletic guy so handling the recoil is not too bad. This whole conversation for over 2+ years is hilarious. Any gun between 9 mil and .45 caliber is fine if you can conceal it, and employ it quickly and with reasonable accuracy. Also, I question how much influence the logistics command had over this conclusion. Train, train train and when your done. Damage: 55. Another deputy acquired a .45 and was having trouble being able to qualify with it. WebSTI Tactical. 9mm. Your shots have to count. My $.02. Plenty of gang shootings. I think the pain element is still to much with paint balls for Obamas new policy I think dart guns with the rubber suction cups would be more his speed. style Tommy Gun But I do like Cor- Bon, and Glaser POWRBALL BY COR-BON. Someone may be laughing but I am given to understand that over in Iraq and Astan there are people who frequently HAVE had to chase down individuals who have been wounded with a handgun. So how can we expect people to take a human life so readily? It is all in the throat (Leade) and where the bullet contacts the rifling. Thanks for reading and commenting!! Training, muscle memory, nerves, etc dictate to me, that the harder hitting rounds are far more apt to keep me going home in the morning. According to the Marine Corps Times: For Marine special operators, the never-ending debate over whether the 9mm or .45-caliber round is the more powerful bullet has been settled. However, it does suffer from the same issue as the .40s&w, and that is that its snappier in its recoil impulse. 10mm. In one case study of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the Colt Defender 3" 45 ACP; Colt Gov't 70 Series; Kimber Warrior, w/ Rail; Kimber Warrior II; Kimber Super Carry Pro; Kimber Super Carry Ultra, 45 ACP, 3" Remington 1911 R1 Enhanced 5" 45 ACP; Ruger SR1911 Commander 4 Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless the is bone different muscle mass fat and other bonds in our bodies When I left LE I traided for a S&W 39-2 9mm. Their explanation (other than increasing ammo capacity): bullet technology has come a long way since 1986. One other thought dont ever modify the trigger on your self-defensive gun if you ever have to use it in those situations and lawyer finds that out he will own everything you have. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. I just bought a S&W M&P 9 Shield. The .45 is a less desirable round because of Air Resistance? I usually only post on the Reloading and Springfield portions of this forum, but I feel it needs to be stated of course that all the well educated and sincere folks who have posted actual facts regarding calibers and flung mass "shapes" are simply trying to destroy the internet and forums like these. When it comes to personal defense, my preferred calibers are .357 Magnum and .45 ACP, with a grudging nod to the .38 Special and 9mm Luger for concealed carry when I simply cannot conceal a larger handgun. You have renewed my faith in man. I like how the author notes that the accuracy analogy is nonsense, thats true. Bullet coursing from behind the knee to my heel. Think the title of this article is misleading. What I have found, is its a matter of preference. In other words slower bullet JHP more energy transferred more effective. I guess I might be a little old school, 1911 45, M1 Grand in 3006, or M1A in a 308, these are older, but they have not made better guns or calibersI still have a glock and some 9s, but only because If I do have to use it I dont want to lose my 1911, and yes I have a AR15, but still like the A1 more. We look forward to serving you. There is a wide range of participants and many of them have never fired a gun of any kind. Modern ammunition changes the field somewhat. Projectiles do not accelerate once they leave the muzzle. When the. and departments. I believe politics carries the most weight.The military sidearm is the least political concern as far as what other weapons are available for them.The beretta was a good example.Far from the best weapon compared to sig & glock,it got us a deal to put missles in Italy . A true warriors gun. Massive blood loss is much more likely with deep penetration and damage to vital organs. As blood moves through the body, it picks up extra fluid, chemicals and waste. I carry a Sig P226 9mm, or a Springfield 1911 in 45. 9mm beats .45acp. Bullets can also increase the surface area that transfers energy to targets by expanding, as in the case of hollow-point rounds. F=MA always applies to the known laws of physics. Wouldnt waste my money on it. This study is thus inherently flawed, as it ranks large shallow wounds above deeper ones. The 9 has more A but the M of the 45 has more than enough to overtake the 9 even the newer ones. I own 9mm, .40 and .45. The 9mm isnt a garbage round but feeling better with these 230 grain Winchester Rangers loaded on my side. Patrick explains in his treatise that, A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! Weve known this for, what, eighty years now? At 10-20 yards I want a .45. People like the OP of the TIFU have been shot right above their heart and lungs, with .223 and despite a nasty, nasty exit wound and the shot placement, walked it off. But thats me. In winter I concealed carry a 1911. Is it comfortable for you to carry and shoot and are you accurate and reasonably quick in getting it from concealment to shooting? The better the bullet and the shot placement of an officer, the more likely the officer will go home after a shooting. The difference can be seen with pistol rounds, as well. Copyright 2023 Police1. Ricochet off. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it hits its target with more energy. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. With the spine on the backside with the arteries running along it, coupled with the obesity of the fast food hoodlum, that penetration was considered more key. While this research is geared toward law enforcement officers, it cuts through the confusion, and provides common-sense, scientifically supported principles by which the effectiveness of self-defense ammunition may more generally be measured. Since doing some research on the new ammo for the .380 acp, Ive decided that 17-22 of penetration from Lehigh & Ruger Personal Defense rounds, I carry the Browning Black Label .380. When i was in the military in the 60s we still were using hard ball ammo and the same still applied. How does air resistance have ANYTHING to do with the terminal ballistics as they relate to penetration? (My opinion) I have long advocated carrying 1911s with 8 extra magazines. Just carry what YOU feel most comfortable with and shoot the best with as shot placement is most important. My opinion is he got shot in the living room and after he kicked the door in. They are fine weapons and are certainly capable as a sidearm. of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.. Looks like a Chinese-made toy gun. 45 stopping power! Got to love 45 in Army Guard 21 years. Without fragmentation, temporary cavity wounds can be relatively minor. Prefer a 9 mm. I still did like the 39-2 for CC. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. I have got to wonder about this Neil Clapperton quoted above. WebRock Island Armory 1911 Rock Ultra CS Fiber Optic 45 ACP Sub-Compact 7-Round Pistol $ 679 99 679 dollars 99 cents $ 699 99 699 dollars 99 cents. Also, I have pretty much explained what you have just said. I dont want a light fast bullet that will over penetrate and possibly injure or kill an unintended. We need to dial back our expectations of what a pistol cartridge can and cant do as an instrument of CQB. For members of the hand-cannon clique, toting a weapon loaded with anything less is just asking to be shot or killed by street punks who are feelin lucky..